Thursday, January 24, 2019

Response to a CF forum poster.


Which is the old  Catholic recourse to the antiquity=veracity fallacy:

Appeal to tradition - Wikipedia
Appeal to tradition (also known as argumentum ad antiquitatem,[1] appeal to antiquity, or appeal to common practice) is an argument in which a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it is correlated with some past or present tradition.

Of course if the tradition is given by the wholly inspired word of God via reliable, substantive  transmission, then there is no fallacy. The problem is that oral tradition by nature simply by far is not the most reliable from of transmission, but God manifestly made writing His most-reliable means of reliable authoritative preservation.. (Exodus 17:14; 34:1,27; Deuteronomy 10:4; 17:18; 27:3,8; 31:24; Joshua 1:8; 2 Chronicles 34:15,18-19, 30-31; Psalm 19:7-11; 102:18; 119; Isaiah 30:8; Jeremiah 30:2; Matthew 4:5-7; 22:29; Luke 24:44,45; John 5:46,47; John 20:31; Acts 17:2,11; 18:28; Revelation 1:1; 20:12, 15)

Moreover, men such as the apostles could speak as wholly inspired of God and also provide new public revelation thereby (in conflation with what had been written), neither of popes and councils claim to do.

And thus as abundantly evidenced , as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God. Even the veracity of even apostolic oral preaching could be subject to testing by Scripture, (Acts 17:11) and not vice versa.


Now relying upon this "ordained antiquity" equals ensured veracity principle, let's imagine a debate btwn a first century member of "the sect of the Nazarenes" (Acts 24:5) and a Pharisees.

Nazarene: Sir, "stand thou still a while, that I may shew thee the word of God," [1 Samuel 9:27] from the Scriptures that Jesus of Nazareth was indeed the very Christ.

Pharisee: Then answered the Pharisee, Are ye also deceived? Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed. [John 7:47]

Know ye not that as Saul of Tarsus affirms, we art "a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law." [Romans 2:19-20] For unto us "were committed the oracles of God. [Romans 3:2] Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises," [Romans 9:4] promises of Divine guidance, presence and perpetuation as we believe? [Gn. 12:2,3; 17:4,7,8; Ex. 19:5; Lv. 10:11; Dt. 4:31; 17:8-13; Ps, 11:4,9; Is. 41:10, Ps. 89:33,34; Jer. 7:23] And are the descendants of the fathers, out of whom Christ shall come? [Romans 9:5]

Nazarene: But sir, you are like those who rejected prophets of old, who also were not ordained of thee, of thy office, nor had thine sanction, but who established their Truth claims upon conformity with the word of God and in power, as did Jesus of Nazareth.

Pharisee: And we build tombs to those prophets for "if we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets." [Matthew 23:30]

Nazarene: But by rejecting Jesus of Nazareth as the Christ thou hast rejected those prophets for it was of He that they spake! [Acts 10:43] John the baptizer, whom all count to be a prophet indeed, [Mark 11:32] also testified that Jesus was the Christ.

Pharisee: So? This people who knoweth not the law are cursed. [John 7:47-49] And the baptizer had no more valid authority then thy savior Jesus. And "search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet." [John 7:52] "We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is." [John 9:29]

Nazarene: Indeed, "in that saidst thou truly" [John 4:18] of they ignorance, for Jonah the prophet was of Galillee, (2 Kings 14:25) while Jesus the Christ was born in Bethlehem, "Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?" [John 7:42]

Pharisee: Hearsay. Is he "greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead:" [John 8:53. KJV) whom makest himself to be? [John 8:53]

Nazarene: Sir, He is the Divine Son of the living God, who by word and deed attested, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."[John 8:58]

Pharisee: And "we have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God." [John 19:7]

Nazarene: And "ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;" and Him, "being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." [Acts 2:23] However, "Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly." [Acts 10:40. KJV]

Pharisee: Nay, for the soldiers themselves have testified that you "disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept." [Matthew 28:12-13]

Nazarene: But "after that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep." [1 Corinthians 15:6]

Pharisee: "And, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us." [Acts 5:28]

Nazarene: Oh, but that you would "let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." [Acts 2:36] "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord." [Acts 3:19]

Pharisee: Again, just who are thee to instruct US? Do we not sit "in the seat of Moses" [Mt. 23:2] over Israel, who are the historical instruments and stewards of Scripture. Why without us you would not even have any Scriptures to quote from. And as dissent from our judgments is a capital offense under the Law (Dt. 17:8-13) then beware! I would have thee stoned if it were not for these unwashed detestable Romans ruling over us.

Which is another typical Catholic recourse, that of a  straw man:

Straw man - Wikipedia
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."

"Sola Scriptura" which is what the  Catholic must attack (since the Catholic church and its doctrine law is supposed to be supreme) simply does not means only the Bible is to be used. One source states,

..like many core Christian convictions, the doctrine of sola Scriptura has often been misunderstood and misapplied. Unfortunately, some have used sola Scriptura as a justification for a “me, God, and the Bible” type of individualism, where the church bears no real authority and the history of the church is not considered when interpreting and applying Scripture. Thus, many churches today are almost ahistorical—cut off entirely from the rich traditions, creeds, and confessions of the church. They misunderstand sola Scriptura to mean that the Bible is the only authority rather than understanding it to mean that the Bible is the only infallible authority. Ironically, such an individualistic approach actually undercuts the very doctrine of sola Scriptura it is intended to protect. By emphasizing the autonomy of the individual believer, one is left with only private, subjective conclusions about what Scripture means. It is not so much the authority of Scripture that is prized as the authority of the individual. (Understanding Sola Scriptura)

In short, not necessarily more wisdom much less pity, but enlightenment,  and which we can claim for  basically  the same reason the common people heard Jesus gladly, and counted John the baptizer to be a prophet indeed, even though they were both rejected by those who sat in the seat of the valid historical magisterium. And they also had  a body of wholly inspired-of-God writings established as authoritative, even though  in Catholicism it is argued that faith in her is essential for knowing this.

And  which  valid historical magisterium the Messiah reproved  by Scripture as being supreme, (Mk. 7:2-16) and established His Truth claims upon scriptural substantiation in word and in power, as did the early church as it began upon this basis. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)

It can be argued that evangelical faith does not have as much immediate miraculous testimony as 1st century souls were given in the presence of Christ and the prima NT church (and thus does not see much in the way of negative, disciplinary miracles also), however, the principle of Truth claims being established upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power remains. In contrast to the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility (with its historical argument) being the basis for doctrinal assurance, as it is to be for Catholics.

Who polemically appeal to Scripture when dealing with us, as if it was the supreme standard, yet their goal is to bring us to forsake that premise, and implicitly submit to their amalgamated "unified in diversity" Catholic system. http://www.peacebyjesus.com/RC-Stats_vs._Evang.html#TOC

No comments:

Post a Comment

I will try to respond to comments within one or two days after I see a response, however, this has not been where I usually engage in dialogue.
Please try to be reasonable, willing to examine things prayerfully and objectively, and refrain from "rants" and profane language, especially regarding God and the Christan faith. The latter type are subject to removal on this Christian blog, but I do try to help people no matter who they are. May all know the grace of God in truth.